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Poster: light into ashes Date: Sep 23, 2011 8:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Feeling Groovy Jam

Well, since the Dead started doing the riff in autumn '69, I think they'd know the Chicago song by then, and it would be newer...
I'm on the fence, since Weir's chords kind of sound more like Beginnings to me, but with more of the rhythm of Tighten Up. (And of course, Chicago might have borrowed a bit from Tighten Up as well!)
Although personally, it is hard for me to admit that the Dead would borrow a riff from a Chicago tune, since I hate that song so much... The other tunes they liked to quote were at least cool in their own right! (And, which of the two songs is it more likely the Dead would happen to jam on?)

I'd hasten to point out that the borrowing is strictly just Weir's chords, as the rest of what the band plays in a "Tighten Up" jam is, I think, quite original to them.
It's like Feelin' Groovy, in which not only did they take nothing but the chord progression, they could play it at quite different tempos & rhythms, depending on the mood; so it's not like it sounds anything like the Simon & Garfunkel song.
And it's notable that they composed Uncle John's Band at about the same time they started doing the Feelin' Groovy jam, so the chord resemblance might not be accidental... You can compare the birth of the two jams here:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd69-06-xx.aud.tzuriel.10510.sbeok.shnf

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Poster: mklsgl Date: Sep 23, 2011 11:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Feeling Groovy Jam

Weren't they (GD and CTA) touring together at that time? The 10/25 version is the first version of that Jam to my knowledge; the 11/2 version is a bit different (of course!), in that, Garcia literally switches gears (almost comes to a full, silent stop--if my memory serves me well) then launches into what I believe is "Beginnings" Jam #2. I'm not sure if there is a #3...

- Michael

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Sep 24, 2011 7:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Feeling Groovy Jam

I don't think the GD & the CTA ever played together.
The very first time the riff pops up is around 21 minutes into the 8/30/69 Dark Star, when Garcia's broken a string & the others are filling in; so it's not a real band jam, just Weir fooling around.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Sep 24, 2011 9:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Feeling Groovy Jam

They may not have played together, but a little more research reveals some interesting stuff.

Chicago played the Fillmore West a few times in 69 - May 29 thru June1, as well as 8/15 thru 8/17. They also played at a free festival on 7/7/69 in Piedmont Park, Atlanta - with several other bands including the Allman Bros, Delaney & Bonnie, and the Grateful Dead ! I think this is ample opportunity for them to hear the riff from Beginnings.

Fillmore dates: http://www.chickenonaunicycle.com/Fill%20West%20Shows.htm


Here's a quote from this page below, although who can vouch for accuracy considering his hyperbole...

http://www.thestripproject.com/Hippies_Stories/Entries/2007/5/19_Dead_in_Piedmont_Park.html

"It was midnight and Dead had played most of the songs for which they were becoming known and they stopped after about three hours. But now more equipment was added to the stage?!
Most of the musicians retook the stage to play with the Dead. Big horn section, background singers, eight drummers, a bass quintet, and Harold Kelling, Glenn Phillips, Duane Allman and Dickie Betts, Delaney Bramlett, Chicago’s guitarist, Randy California, and Jerry Garcia trading and interlacing lead lines.
This was a two-hour shakedown song before they settled into “Dark Star” experimentation. This became a rock symphony full of the once and future hits of all concerned.
About 3:30 AM Jerry’s guys shifted to their closing song. Coda after coda rang into the darkness of Atlanta’s late July night stillness."

The show here on the archive may be incomplete, but does not seem to reveal any extra musicians onstage, although it features a nice Dark Star and a 37 min. Lovelight.

http://www.archive.org/details/gd69-07-07.sbd.clugston.3116.sbeok.shnf

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Sep 24, 2011 7:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Feeling Groovy Jam

Good to know; I hadn't known Chicago played the Piedmont Park festival.
However, I must say it's extremely unlikely the Dead saw any of Chicago's Fillmore shows, as they were busy playing their own shows (including Woodstock) during those dates!
Nor do I think it's at all necessary for them to check out Chicago live to get that riff. Just the album would do! Really, just Weir toying with a couple chords is all we need as the original genesis of the jam...

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Sep 25, 2011 4:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Feeling Groovy Jam

Absolutely agree - not necessary to see them live to hear the riff. CTA was a popular band around then, they would have gotten some radio play. Also, it's the kind of riff you could conjure very easily.

And, as you mention, it's more important what the band could do with a musical inspiration, regardless of the source - improvisation took them to new heights - what the band did WAS original.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Sep 23, 2011 9:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Feeling Groovy Jam - Beginnings!

I had trouble picking out the Feelin Groovy from that home recording...

I'm changing my opinion. There is a little musical evidence to support the "Beginnings" theory. (I will need more confirmation from other musicians on the forum to support this.) I did a little research...

Tighten Up as played by the Drells (previous typo correction) was Fmaj7 > Bmaj7. We would hear this as going up 4 steps; whereas Beginnings was played as Amaj7 > Gmaj7, a descent of 1 step. On 11-02-69 at 22;32 - the very first chords I hear a descent. ! ( A and D chords are basic to Dark Star) Of course, they could transpose this basic two-chord riff to any key to fit. What do you think - anyone else hear it this way?

Preceding this, do I hear them copping "Volunteers of America"?

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Sep 24, 2011 7:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Feeling Groovy Jam - Beginnings!

I think you're right; even in later "Tighten Up" jams, the chords do seem closer to the Beginnings intro.
And rechecking that first '69 demo jam, it does seem to be off the Uncle John's chords, not the Feelin' Groovy chords.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Sep 23, 2011 9:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Feeling Groovy Jam

The 11/2 version does seem to be a hybrid with Weir playing Beginnings and the band playing Tighten Up,but on the 10/25 version just around 16 minutes in you feel a little shift and it seems Weir,Phil and TC are riffing on Beginnings.It was so clear in my first listen,now it's there but vague,damn you mklsgl,you have opened a can of worms.

http://www.archive.org/details/gd69-10-25.sbd.jagla.81.sbefail.shnf

This post was modified by jerlouvis on 2011-09-23 16:35:44

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Poster: mklsgl Date: Sep 24, 2011 11:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Feeling Groovy Jam

Can of worms?--sorry! Truth is that I read about this ("Beginnings") Jam in one of the review threads for either 10/25 or 11/2 and it piqued my scruffy mind.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Sep 24, 2011 1:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Feeling Groovy Jam

I was joking mklsgl,pointing out that you brought up another thing to ponder in the GD universe rich in things to ponder.

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